The following transcript has been edited for readability. Timestamps have been removed and minor transcription errors corrected. Speaker comments and context have been preserved.

Opening Remarks

Rich Portelance

Welcome, everyone, to the EdGate Powers podcast series. I'm your host, Rich Portelance, and today, I'm excited to have Larry Johnson with me; Larry works with EdGate. During the first quarter, we are talking about a central theme, which is Future-Ready Alignments: Redefining Curriculum for What Comes Next. There's a lot of noise in the market right now. AI-powered alignment tools, automated correlations, rapid tagging at scale, yada yada. We're going to dive into some of those topics, and while the technology is impressive, the bigger question really is, are we improving alignment or just accelerating it? And is it helping the bottom line, or is it causing more problems? So, we're going to talk about those things and others. I'll let Larry introduce himself; he has a long background and history with EdGate and in education. 

Just to remind everyone, March 25th is the webinar, and we are going to be talking about future-ready alignments. With us will be Larry, of course; Peter Coe will be joining us, who is the senior director from Student Achievement Partners; as well as Zarek Drozda, executive director of Data Science 4 Everyone; and probably our most frequent guest, Hillary Rinaldi, who is the vice president from Whiteboard Advisors. So, we have a great panel coming up for this topic. 

But for now, Larry, give us an intro.

Larry Johnson

Well, I started out teaching science back in the day. I did that for 30 years, then retired and… actually, just sort of changed careers, really. There was no time frame in between there. I didn't get to really retire; I just changed careers and became a project manager with EdGate, and I've been working with them for 22 years now. And so, a lot of my work originated about 10 or 12 years ago when Virginia started to require third-party reviews of vendors’ content that could not be from the vendor. It had to be a third party, outsourced, and unbiased, so to speak, so I tended to land all those projects.

Rich Portelance

You’re a special person to do that, Larry. 

Larry Johnson

Working with standards and publishers’ content and helping them with feedback on, “Yeah, you're meeting this part of the standard, but not that part. You could add this in your lesson”, and that type of thing. So… 

Discussion

Rich Portelance

That's a good setup actually for my first question, which is, you know, what's changed most about the standards in the last two or three years? What are you seeing as kind of the most prominent shift?

Larry Johnson

Yeah, good question. 

So, across the U.S. in particular– not as much internationally– but across the U.S. standards, they are becoming… states are adding more elements into the standards. So, in other words, they're becoming more granular. The standards are specifying specific requirements of students. So, as an example, the old standard might be, you know, “Students will learn the process of interviewing skills.” And now, those same standards are being expanded to interviewing community members, as well as peers. And so, you know, those elements… publishers need to be aware that they need to expand their lessons to be very specific to address these standards, because every state, of course, is a little bit different. They all like to have their own, you know, set of standards. So, publishers end up often having to create state-specific courses.

Rich Portelance

So, that's a great point, Larry, because we all know the implosion of Common Core and the rise of state-level standards with 50 groups, and they're all somewhat unique. There are still some threads that go through, but when you look at that, it poses its own problems of a one-to-50 thing, but now we're talking about this idea of a future-ready alignment. What does that mean to you if you hear that phrase?

Larry Johnson

Well they're going to have to be… they're going to have to address the specificity of the standards, and that's going to be the biggest challenge. And, you know, it's pretty hard to meet that specificity without the human element involved.

Rich Portelance

Yeah. 

Larry Johnson

The AI just… I mean, it's helpful, but, you know, it doesn't discern the specific elements in standards all the time. You can't depend on it. So yeah, that's what I see the biggest piece is.

Rich Portelance

You know, in the work that you do for EdGate, there's this hybrid model. You're using ExACT, which is a tool that has some AI components to it, and it provides a certain level of capability in order to expand what you do from one state to 50, then find the gaps, and start to hone in, right? But it's a hybrid model, kind of looking from the outside in. Can you shed a little light on that, Larry, so people understand, you know, that it’s different than what some folks are doing, which is just pure AI and trying to do an alignment? This is a process born from, what, seven patents and concept-based architecture that I don't think many people really understand?

Larry Johnson

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so we are far more human-based than AI. So, AI is helpful and it does have its place. We do incorporate it where appropriate, but, you know, the biggest piece I think that you need to understand is that it is predominantly human-based. So, you know, for example, if you go into a lesson, AI is going to be assimilating the text that it's supplied to analyze what's going on, whereas visually, there may be things that students are doing or being asked to do that AI might not pick up on. 

And so, we then focus on the concepts that are happening that AI, you know, may not get them all. Yeah.

Rich Portelance

So, along that paradigm, Larry, I want to touch a little bit on ExACT as a tool, because I know that pure AI has real limitations. Where do you see the advantage of bringing in a tool like ExACT into the human model, and how does that differentiate what EdGate does today and what it can do going forward?

Larry Johnson

Oh, well, I think one application would be for publishers. They can use the ExACT tool to run a report against any set of standards they want, and that report tells them which lessons, based on the concepts– which lessons align to which standards in that state or in that subset. They can filter to just Algebra 1 standards, or they could filter to Calculus, or they could filter to English 2 in Texas, or whatever they wanted. So it homes in on just the standards set they need to submit to that state. And then it puts them in the ballpark, and so then they can go through and fine-tune aspects as needed for that particular state. But it's huge rather than starting from scratch.

Rich Portelance

So it gets you 80% and then, you know, the last 20% has to be that human component, and EdGate seems to do that at scale. 

Larry Johnson

Yeah. And it may even be 100% initially. It just depends on the state because they're, you know, they're all so different. So, in any subject, really.

Rich Portelance

So, let's talk about where these alignments break down a little bit. If you're a smaller publisher, put yourself in, because I think there are three levels. There's the edtech startups, then you have the mid-level publishers, and then you have the behemoths out there. And, you know, we probably could argue there's some other layers, but let's just kind of take those three blocks. 

If I'm a smaller edtech startup and I'm using AI to get into Virginia, you know, what advantages am I going to have and what are my disadvantages? Where does that break down?

Larry Johnson

Well, one of the big advantages for Virginia or other states that require third-party reviews for submission would be that we can then help you with that fine-tuning to meet the individual elements of each of Virginia's standards. So, I mean, that's the biggest advantage I would think.

Rich Portelance

Okay, and if they're doing it independently, if I'm a small edtech startup, I say, “I don't want to pay for EdGate. I'm just going to go, and I'm going to use AI! I'm going to do my alignments and, you know, and get in the door”, where does that run afoul in your estimation?

Larry Johnson

Well, yeah. I mean, that's actually what I was speaking to. So, they can do that. What Virginia requires and other states that do require third-party reviews now for submission. It means that the vendor has to have that report all done. “Here's your standards, Virginia, and these are the lessons that we think meet the standard.” That is not submitted to Virginia. That is submitted to a third-party vendor, like, which could be EdGate. 

And in that scenario, their content doesn't have to be in our database. We just need access to those lessons, and almost all submissions now are… you know, there is online access to the vendor's courses. And so, we just go into those courses, look at what the students are doing, and then we say yay or nay on, “Yes, it does meet that standard”, or, “Well, no. You have part of it, but you're not meeting this element of the standard.” You know, then that's the feedback that entity then would get back, and then they have the choice of editing and making it so their individual lessons meet. Most states are pretty competitive, so if you don't meet 100% of their standards, you know, why bother?

Rich Portelance

Yeah.

Larry Johnson

Because it's pretty competitive. 

And so, the goal is to meet 100% of that set, whether it's Algebra 1 or, you know, physical science, or whatever. Music, art, you know, whatever it is. And then they can make the adjustment, send it back to us, and then we can review it again. But they need a third-party vendor to sign off on whatever they submit.

Rich Portelance

And within that spectrum, what are the most common misconceptions that an organization might have about the standards alignment? Is it that there's third-party review necessary? Or is there some other nuance there that people just don't really understand? Again, in this world of, “I do one, I'm not doing all 50 at the same time unless I have some more advanced tool”, right? Where are those misconceptions happening?

Larry Johnson

I think what I see mostly in the reviews that we do for clients is… the misperception is… back to that previous interview scenario, is that “Yeah, well the lesson is about interviews.” Well, yes, it is, but you're not meeting the elements within the standard. So, that's the biggest misperception that I see happening among publishers, is that they're not paying attention enough to the detail of what that state is requiring.

Rich Portelance

Well, that could be because it's the heightened complexity of the whole architecture, right? We have this changing paradigm as you just described. The standards themselves are more complex, the review process is much more scrutinous, and now you have to do it for 50 states. I mean, that's a paradigm shift in and of itself. And so, one of the things I've heard and I like to talk about is alignment as infrastructure. I don't know if you've heard that, but how does that resonate with you? What does that say to you?

Larry Johnson

Well, let me ask you, what does that mean to you?

Rich Portelance

Well, that means that it's no longer just an optional exercise, that it has to be a core component. If you're an educational publisher, if you don't have an alignment engine and team, you're toast. You can't be successful in today's market.

Larry Johnson

Yeah, I would agree with that. And what we're seeing more and more is that more states are requiring the third-party vendor review of what they're submitting before they even accept anything. They're also starting to require– Indiana also coming to mind is another one I've done– that is requiring a similar review of their courses themselves. Not individual lessons, per se, but of the course itself; they're called “high-quality curriculum materials” (HQCM). It used to be HQIM (high-quality instructional materials), and it is a rubric that is structured so that it gives you a rating– a score of a course. You know, does it meet all these different criteria that students need to be successful in a course? Are there resource materials? Can they connect to someone if they have questions? And things like that. So, it's more of the structure of the course itself. 

So, publishers now are being scrutinized really more and more by states on two levels, actually. The platform and structure of the course itself, as well as the lessons within these courses. Yeah.

Rich Portelance

I could imagine that time dedication to going through that process only to fail would be a huge, you know, issue for a smaller to mid-size publisher. 

Larry Johnson

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Rich Portelance

And I heard, you know, kind of second-hand that there was a large publisher that lost out on a contract in Texas because they didn't have their i’s dotted and the t’s crossed, you know, through the alignment process, and that was a multi-million dollar contract. I can't imagine the pain that they suffered.

Larry Johnson

Yeah. Yeah. 

And, you know, Texas is a little bit unique. I know that's not surprising, but the way they structure things is quite detailed, and they want, you know, things done a certain way. And they adopt, typically statewide– not always, but typically they adopt statewide. So, that's why it's such a huge contract. Whereas other states, they can adopt statewide; they put them on a statewide list, but it's often more up to the district whether they want– or sometimes even individual schools like Jefferson County in Virginia. So, you know, it varies. 

Rich Portelance

One of the areas where– I had a podcast interview with Keven Ellis from the Texas Board of Education last fall. It was a terrific interview; we were talking about a regionalization of mostly CTE stuff, so that if you're in Galveston, you're going to have the opportunity as a student to be regionalized to learn those local trades, and the same in the Dallas area. And so they're trying to help bring students up to connect with industries, so their CTE standards are getting very specific regarding those local economies, which is kind of interesting. 

But as you're saying, the academic standards are across the entire state as huge contracts, and then they're doing these regional CTE plays. And, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, there's something like seven CTE standards for every one academic standard, or some crazy number like that, right?

Larry Johnson

Well, it depends on which state you're in. So, CTE is a whole different animal. Yeah, so, Texas has a plethora of CTE standards, as well as their academics. But there are states that– especially agricultural states– they tend… their CTE standards tend to mirror their economic situation. So if you're a highly… if you're more of a farming state, then you're going to have probably a lot more agriscience-type CTE standards and courses available than a state that's highly industrial. And, you know, the farming state may have very few or not any CTE stuff for IT. So, that is very state-specific. You can't… unlike the academic arena, you can build an Algebra 1 course, and you can be pretty comfortable that that's going to probably pretty much apply to all states.

Rich Portelance

Okay. 

Larry Johnson 

Maybe a few tweaks per state, but for the most part, it's going to be untrue for CTE.

Rich Portelance

I was just going to ask about that, because an electrician standard in Arkansas is not an electrician standard in California, right? So… 

Larry Johnson 

I mean, there may be similarities, but it's less likely. Yeah. They're usually very different, and they're tailored to the economy of that state itself. Yeah. That's a scary animal.

Rich Portelance

So, I– and I know that EdGate has done a lot of work with the Journeys Map product on CTE, trying to, you know, make sense and bring about some ability for people to find and build career paths based on CTE standards, which I think is a fascinating science, but it's a behemoth of a challenge as you just rightfully pointed out.

Larry Johnson 

Yeah. 

Rich Portelance

So, you know, everybody's talking about AI alignments, and AI in general, that seems to be the buzzword, and rightfully so. There's a lot of good there and a lot that can be done. But where is it falling short when it comes to alignment in your mind?

Larry Johnson 

In my mind, you need for… to have the alignment be actually effective and make sense, I don't see how– I don't care how good AI or the programs are; you need that human element of evaluation in there. I just… yeah, from what I see, I mean, yeah. It's helpful, but it also is misleading. 

Rich Portelance

Okay.

Larry Johnson 

There are results… We did a big project for Gates about a year ago where we compared math standards across five different states, and we used AI to help in the comparisons, but there were times when the comparison was just flat out wrong, you know. And I mean, sometimes you kind of just scratch your head and say, “Well, how did AI even come up with this?” And then other times you say, “Well, I can see where it would make that connection, but that isn't what was intended; that isn't what we meant”, and so they’re misinterpretations. So yeah, I see that as being, you know, [Inaudible]. 

Rich Portelance

And beyond just what the basic correlation or alignment is, I know EdGate focuses on building metadata and other components. And then, you know, obviously building gap analysis, being able to connect once one alignment is done, and with the idea of concepts, it can connect to other states. So, it's taking this opportunity and bringing it much further along. 

From a project management perspective, how does that help, and where do you see the advantages of that kind of process?

Larry Johnson 

Well, that's a great question. It gives me pause, because from a project management point of view, whatever AI comes up with, you have to verify it. So it actually creates more time involvement on your time to check to make sure that that is accurate, with whatever AI came up with. So, yes, it can help put you in the right ballpark, but at the same time, it can also, you know, be a little annoying that it's… that misuse of time, so to speak. 

Rich Portelance

So, it sounds like there could be some major economic impact if you don't get it right, too. You know, if you go down a rabbit hole, it could send you in the wrong direction, or if it doesn't have the right review and you don't get the contract. There's a lot of risk associated with that process.

Larry Johnson 

Yeah. If you don't have some sort of, you know, quality assurance for AI, it's a great risk, because not only are you risking submitting inaccurate information, but you're also then risking your own name.

Rich Portelance

Yeah. 

Larry Johnson 

You know, you're putting your own publisher, or EdGate, or whoever, you're putting yourself at risk if you don't do your due diligence with checking it.

Rich Portelance

Do you see… within EdGate, as you know, kind of as the alignment leader to some extent within the space because you've been doing it for 28 years, I think, now, right? It's been a long time.

Larry Johnson 

Yeah. Yeah. I've been doing it for 22, but yeah, I think total, yes, that sounds about right.

Rich Portelance

What makes EdGate unique in your estimation, having been there for 22 years?

Larry Johnson 

Well, the niche that we do is a niche no one really wants to do. And so, that makes us unique in the fact that we do it. 

It's also our database. Because of what we do, we have just an enormous database. I don't know how many now, six million standards or, I don't know, wherever it's at, but it's huge. And it's always growing because, you know, we have publishers and clients that want, “Hey, how about the new Singapore standards? Can we get those?” So, we're always adding international as well as individual standards even within the U.S. They want, you know, special standards that are not part of the normal academic arena, but they may want standards that are kind of outliers, not in the regular scheme of things. And so, it's just always expanding, but nobody has that database of everything. Yeah, so that makes us pretty unique.

Rich Portelance

So, you have this database of millions of standards, and you have the human oversight with the knowledge base to be able to apply and do the alignments and the correlations at scale. How does the EdGate tech come into play in your job, and where do you see that going over the next three or four years?

Larry Johnson 

Well, we have an amazing tech person who is not only great to work with, but he has good foresight and good vision of where things are and where they need to be. And so, I see it constantly evolving. He builds things with the help of his team; of course, he builds things so that it makes it easier and more efficient for us to do our job. He makes it faster to edit and get clients' content more nestled in to where they need it. So I see that as just a constant evolution, like anything, you know? 

Rich Portelance

And he's been there with you, I think, just about the entire time. You guys probably came on about the same time. 

Larry Johnson 

Well, actually, he came on before me. He was the original architect, shall we say, for EdGate way back in the day. And yeah, so he, you know, not only does he have the history, but he's got the, you know, investment of all that energy and creative innovation that has been going on for years.

Rich Portelance

I find it amazing. I mean, you don't see that kind of longevity in many companies, so congratulations. And I know Jeremy, you know, his background, and he's not an old guy. He's younger than me for crying out loud, and he's been there for 26 years. But I look at the innovation, and I'm amazed at what they're doing with it being in such a thoughtful way. 

You know, AI is becoming part of a component that's going to enrich what ExACT does. I mean, it has to. The speed and the precision, you know, that's there– that can be there. If you don't understand how to harness it, I think you're going to be lost at some point, because humans can only keep up to a certain extent. But as you just said, they're making your job easier. They're taking this patented concept that was there 26 to 27 years ago, and this continual evolution with the same group of people for the most part. I mean, where do you see that in society? Really? I mean, it doesn't happen too often.

Larry Johnson 

It doesn't, you know? And yeah, I'm outliving all of my clients, you know? I build up a rapport with somebody, and three or four years later, they're gone, and then I start over with somebody new. And so, yeah, you don't see it. It is unusual. 

And I do want to kind of comment for the viewers just so they know: you mentioned earlier that we have this huge database of standards, but it's more than that. It's actually– it's not just a database of standards; it's a database of standards in which every one of those standards is a concept or has concepts attached to it. So it's not just, you know, uploading standards into a database– it’s a much bigger process. Human eyes are on every single standard, and our taxonomy is placed on every individual standard, and when you think of six million standards, that's a lot of effort over time. And so, you know, then to keep up with it, because states, probably 30% of the standards in the U.S. alone change year to year. And so, you know, they're always updating, and then publishers are scrambling to meet the new standards; we’re scrambling to get them in the database forum early, and, you know, it's quite a dance.

And the other piece that I'd like to point out is that we build the ExACT tool without– we don't build it in isolation, meaning EdGate doesn't come up with, “Hey, this would be good. Let's do this.” We also incorporate input from clients, you know, what they need, and we can build them custom reports if that's what they need. So, really, I look at it more as a collaboration, you know? We're all on the same team working to get what you need. As simple as that.

Rich Portelance

You know, I really appreciate that description and that correction because it's funny. You know, back when I was doing some of the marketing content for EdGate– you know, now I'm just doing this role– I actually wrote the phrase “augmented.” You know, these are augmented standards. There's nothing that goes in there that's just dumped in there; they're augmented with the metadata and the concepts. I mean, it's enriched in such a way that it makes them useful, and I actually think the number, because back a couple of years ago, Jeremy had said to me, “I think Rich, there's about seven million in there, but probably five or five and a half are current, because some expire at a certain time.” So, I would guess that we're getting close to 10 million in there with seven or so that are current standards, because I know they just added a whole bunch of international and new CTE standards, and it's just like every week more and more are added, right?

Larry Johnson 

Yeah. And clients, you know, they end up getting clients for themselves that need a certain subset of standards, and like… I had a client a few years ago, for example, that wanted to enter the European market, and they needed the common European frameworks for the core subjects. And so, we went and found them, downloaded them, attached our taxonomy, put them in the database, and then they could run their reports against those standards, run their content against those standards, and then they could use that as a tool to show how their content does support the standards in those countries in Europe. So, yeah, it's never-ending. 

Rich Portelance

And when you're using the ExACT system, even if you say, “I just need to do this one state”, you're really gaining benefit of all the other work that has been done by these other companies in some way, shape or form through that standards database that's attached to the ExACT system and the analysis that has been done through it. Is that accurate?

Larry Johnson 

Yeah, I think, if I'm understanding you correctly. So, for example, they start out just wanting one state, but then, you know, a year down the road they say, “Hey, can we add these states, too?” Sure.

Rich Portelance

Yeah. Because it's already there in the system.

Larry Johnson 

Yeah. Or, you know, if you're in language arts and they're in a different arena from just the language arts, but they want to get into the ELPS, the English language proficiency standards, which are more for the English language learners, they might want the WIDA, the national set of WIDA standards. And yeah, those are in our database too, because somewhere in the past, clients asked for that set of standards, so we have them, and then we keep them updated as they update, and so on. So yeah, it's a huge advantage. Yeah.

Rich Portelance

So, I want to remind everybody that March 25th is the webinar date. There is a link down below in the description, so please sign up for the webinar. Larry will be there along with the other guests, and we're going to be talking about some of these topics. 

And Larry, this has been a great conversation. I want to switch it just a little bit, and I want to ask you about managing complex, multi-state, multi-framework alignment projects. What separates a scalable system from one-off projects?

Larry Johnson 

One project for us could be a multi-state correlation. So that would be one project. Is that kind of what you're going on about? 

Rich Portelance

Yes, and you've managed those. That's more of a complex project, right? Because it has multiple states, you have to do, you know, do those alignments, you have to make sure everything works. What separates that from, you know, scalable systems from one-off projects just, you know, that aren't multi-state. So, how do they differentiate themselves?

Larry Johnson

So, in the past, publishers would be able to take it on themselves, and they would be able to correlate to a state, which means they don't have a database and they don't have a taxonomy. So, they're individually doing their lessons to populate it to that standard. And they're building or creating their report as they go, which is very time-consuming. And then they go to another state, and they start all over, because it's a different state, with a different set of standards. 

In our system, they do it once for their content, and then when they run it through the ExACT system to run a report, they can select whatever states they want, and the taxonomy makes the match between the list lesson, which has, for example, “this” taxonomy term, and that standard does too in Virginia, California, and Texas. And so that lesson goes to all those states. So that all happens with, you know, I shouldn't say automated, but that happens automatically when they run the report. The database does all that filtering for them. 

Rich Portelance

Then your eyes are on it to make sure everything's correct.

Larry Johnson

Yeah. And then you look at each one, or the vendor looks at each one, whichever, you know, whatever the project requires.

Rich Portelance

So, if you had to do that all by hand, give me an example of the time savings. I mean, is it 80% of the time? 50% of the time? 

Larry Johnson

To do it by hand the first time… it was maybe kind of a wash the first time.

Rich Portelance

Okay.

Larry Johnson

But then, so, let's just for the sake of it, let's say it takes you four hours for the sake of just a number. So, let's say it takes you four hours to align your one course, the lessons in your one course, to Virginia standards. And then, you also want it in West Virginia, so now you're going to do another four hours again. But in the ExACT tool, you just include Virginia and West Virginia and run a report, and you've got them both right there. So, it's the initial investment of time whether we're doing the correlations and loading it into the database, or whether the client is doing it for the first time in one state. That may be kind of a wash, maybe. I mean, we've been doing it for so long; it may be a little faster, but, you know, clients have specialized teams that know their content. So, let's just say it works out to be kind of a wash time-wise, but then every state after that is where it pays dividends, because… that's why most publishers don't do nationwide courses, because it's just impossible for them to do that. They just– it’s just too much time, effort, and resources with a lot of people involved to do that. You know, if you have 10 math courses, and you're going to do those 10 math courses, you're talking 13 grades, K through 12, and each grade you've got to do it. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy.

Rich Portelance

That's crazy.

Larry Johnson

So, yeah. So, that's where our niche has been so successful is… it just, yeah. It really helps companies out time-wise. 

Rich Portelance

And time savings. Yeah.

Larry Johnson

Yeah. So, one person can run 20 reports in a day and have what they need, whereas, you know, it may take them two months. 

Rich Portelance

That brings back the phrase, “alignment as infrastructure.” So, that, to me, that's a perfect example of exactly what we were talking about is, you know, okay, well, I can have all these people, I can keep doing the same thing, I can keep spending the four hours, but that's going to add onto a timeline that's, you know, infinite. And then if I say I can do it once, and then I can cut, you know, even three and a half hours out of that for each one, now I've reduced that time by, you know… So that kind of infrastructure saves, you know, considerable resources and time to market. So if you're looking at it from a sales perspective, missing deadlines, missing opportunities. 

So then, the other component of that is this third-party review, which I imagine there's some part of it that, you know, EdGate having been part of that world for a long time, there's some automations that can apply in order to make that as efficient as possible as well. Is that true? Or is that..? 

Larry Johnson

I wouldn't say automation, because the third-party review is a human being. You know, I mean, we are well-oiled. Not to be bragging, but just point of fact, I mean we are a well-oiled team; we've done it for a long time. I have three or four individuals that are just absolutely dynamite. They know exactly what's expected, they know exactly what to do, and so– but it's an individual, it's a person going through, looking at the lesson, seeing what the students are doing, and saying, “Yep, that meets that standard”, or, “No. You got most of it, but this part's missing.” So, it's relaying that information back to the client. That is not AI-generated. That's human-generated. 

Rich Portelance

That's human generated. 

Larry Johnson

Yeah.

Rich Portelance

And that's required by now. How many states or so? Do you have an estimate?

Larry Johnson

Well, yeah. I know Indiana requires it, Virginia requires it, and Texas requires it, because those are the ones I see mostly from my clients that they're submitting to those states. So, those are the ones I see a lot. But I'm sure there are others, and over time there's going to be more and more. I think Nevada is another one that comes to mind recently. So, yeah, but it just makes sense. You know, states got burned years ago by vendors just saying they wanted to sell their product. “So yeah, we meet all your standards.” Well, then they get feedback from teachers, saying, “Well, no.” 

Rich Portelance

It doesn't work. 

Larry Johnson

I say that, but no, it doesn't.

And so, that's, I think, one of the big charges for states to require a third-party review is that they wanted an unbiased look at it from somebody that knew what they were doing. They wanted to see that… the publishers “walk their talk”. “Walk your talk”. 

So, anyway… 

Rich Portelance

You know, we're getting close to the top of the hour, but I have a couple more questions. You know, one I want to pick your brain about is regarding the future, Larry, because you've done this for a long time, you've seen the trends. What do you believe will define alignment work over the next three to five years?

Larry Johnson

The next three to five years, I see it pretty much continuing in the evolutionary vein that it's in, in that continuing to pay more attention to detail in the standards, because the standards are going to contain more detail. And so, publishers need to be aware to build that into their content

And, one of the things I hear is… well, it's kind of implied that if the students are going to be doing this, then they'll do that. No, there can't be an implication. No, you have got to direct the students to do what the standard is asking them to do. You can't make assumptions that, “Well, yeah, if they do that, they'll probably do that.” No. And so, that's the biggest thing, is for people to really pay attention to detail and not to make assumptions on what might happen. You know, be direct in your lessons, you know, be direct in actually telling the students what to do, or whatever it is that they want for the results for that particular standard. Yeah.

Rich Portelance

And if you had to pick one capacity that every future-ready curriculum organization must build this year, or in the next, let's say, 18 months, what is it? What should they have on board or coming on board to stay abreast of the changes in the market?

Larry Johnson

Well, they have to somehow present to the state they're submitting to, they have to somehow submit a report that shows the state standards and how their content aligns, and that has to be verified by someone other than them. It has to be outside, third-party review. And some states are pretty picky– they don't allow anybody. So, we're on– EdGate is on a vendor list to do that. And I don't know, other states are more, you know, maybe a little bit more relaxed about it, as long as it's somebody with teaching credentials; that's okay. You know, I see that evolving to be more specific and more adhered to. I see that evolving. 

Rich Portelance

It's interesting, because that's on the legislative side of this, you know, this adoption, is, you know, “Hey, we want to do it this way, and it's got to be reviewed because of what the example you pointed out where, you know, content wasn't getting the lessons to the point where they needed to be. They weren't fully meeting the criteria that the standards had set out. So, now legislation steps in, and they've made it more complex. You know, I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but it's more complex, period. Do you see additional complexity? Is complexity going to stay steady? Or is it going to increase? 

Larry Johnson

I think it's going to increase in general. And the increase is largely due to the complexity of standards, adding in those extra elements. Some people refer to them like the action verbs; they're just the elements of the standard that's calling on the student to do specific things, like interview community members, not just your peers. That type, those elements that are specific, and I see the standards increasing. 

We see the same thing in CTE standards; they are also becoming more specific. So that is a general trend, and in Australia, for example, the Australian standards, Western Australia increased in their science. They had a whole, brand-new section of standards that was specific to scuba diving and snorkeling, and all of that because that's such a large economic piece for Western Australia, for the coast, like Perth, and so on. 

So, you know, yeah, the evolution of it being more granular, more specific, and that in itself adds complexity. And I see publishers, they're going to have to have people that are their quality control. They cannot, you know… the idea of simplicity, of, “Oh, AI can do it.” Well, yeah, it can do some things, but not a finished product. 

Rich Portelance

Yeah.

Larry Johnson

So, I see that, you know, people have got to embrace that fact, that I don't see any way around it. You know, whether it's the humans at EdGate doing their job with it, or, you know, people at each of the individual publishers, they've got to have human eyes on projects to make sure it is what it is. 

Rich Portelance

You know, a question I didn't ask is, you know, you talked about how EdGate is using the ExACT tool to do one to many, and to reduce time frames. Is that available to publishers to also license? Is that technology available?

Larry Johnson

Oh, yeah. So, well, I don't know about elsewhere, but yeah, they can license that tool from us. Yeah. 

Rich Portelance

Yeah. So there's another infrastructure change that, you know, if I'm thinking– if I'm a, you know, a CEO, and I'm saying that I have to look at my costs, all this, you know, increase in the COGS, the cost of goods sold, which would be, you know, these legislative requirements that I have to take on, I want to make sure I'm saving some money someplace. And if I can cut back a tremendous amount of hours trying to get into 40 states with this one lesson plan, and I can automate it and save, you know, 90% of the time, that seems like, to me, a pretty easy decision.

Larry Johnson

Yeah. Kind of a no-brainer. 

Rich Portelance

Yeah.

Larry Johnson

And that works, because of our database. You know, the ExACT tool draws from the database. Not only the standards, but all the content. So yeah, and nobody has that database, so I don't know where else they would turn. 

Rich Portelance

Yeah. 

Larry Johnson

Because I don't know that that exists anywhere else.

Rich Portelance

Well, I'm sure there's other people out there, but we won't mention them on this podcast.

Larry Johnson

There's none that I know of. There are entities out there that do things by hand. 

Rich Portelance

Yeah.

Larry Johnson

That do a state-by-state by hand, but because nobody's, you know, put together the database that we have. It's huge.

Rich Portelance

It's a differentiator, huh? 

Larry Johnson

Yeah, it is. It's huge. Yeah.

Closing Thoughts

Rich Portelance

Well, Larry, I want to thank you for being here today. Thank you, everybody who's watched and listened to the podcast. This has been fascinating and really enlightening. On March 25th, Larry is going to be back. We're going to be talking about some of these topics with our other panelists. We're excited. Thank you, Larry, for joining. 

Any final words that you want to say to the audience before we close it out?

Larry Johnson

No. I think we pretty well covered everything, other than… go Seahawks! 

Rich Portelance

Go Seahawks, all right! I love it.

All right, Larry, you have a good day, and thank you, everyone, for joining.

Larry Johnson

Thank you