The following transcript has been edited for readability. Timestamps have been removed and minor transcription errors corrected. Speaker comments and context have been preserved.

Opening Remarks

Rich Portelance

Hello, everyone. This is Rich Portelance with the EdGate Powers podcast. Today, I'm sitting with CEO Max Brooks of Think · Do · Learn. Just so everybody realizes, Max is going to be on our upcoming webinar or executive forum: “The K-12 Adoption Advantage: Creating Procurement Confidence Through Scalable Systems.” We're going to have Jim McVety and Kevin Gray on there as well. There is a link below. If you watch this podcast before the webinar, you can register. Please do join us. It's going to be a great conversation. Max has a very unique, and I think significant, perspective on where things are going, and where things are at with education. 

So let me get it set up, and then Max, you can do an introduction. So, Max, as I said, is the CEO of Think · Do · Learn, and we want to discuss how successful organizations build trust throughout the sales process and beyond. So, Max, if you could give an introduction, and then we'll jump right in.

Max Brooks

Rich, I appreciate the opportunity. Anytime I can be in a community with folks who are doing good work in education, it's a good day. For anybody who thought I was going to be the zombie apocalypse author coming on, I hate to disappoint you. Or some of my hip-hop fans might have thought a different Max B. was showing up. But I am a 25-plus-year educator, career educator, and I now educate through the lens of Think · Do · Learn, a consultancy that focuses on providing practitioners as well as education innovators with the support they need to bring about good outcomes for kids. I help folks understand how to bring products and resources into the market that truly matter and make a difference. 

And it's not just the products; it's also the folks behind the utilization of those services. We also believe, as all the research says, that teachers are the number one, you know, factor in the success of a child. And so, we always want to make sure that that's at the center too, and make sure that culture and support that… Time and times, when we look at the data, that is what matters.

Discussion

Rich Portelance

Max, you've worked with organizations at many different stages of growth. So, I'm really curious, how has selling into education changed over the past decade or so?

Max Brooks

So, my foray into education sales happened not, you know, willfully. I kind of was pulled into it kicking and screaming. When I transitioned–I hate to say “left”–when I transitioned from a classroom practitioner into the corporate space, that was with Discovery Education, and Discovery is a global brand; everyone knows that brand, and it matters. And so, when it came to selling those services, that wasn't actually my responsibility at first, I was on the post-sales side–I was on the implementation side of things, right? We were, hey, somebody already had that sales conversation. We're going in to make sure those products and services take root and actually work as designed. And my boss is the one who transitioned to sales–I guess I was there for maybe three years–and he, for a while–at least a year plus–was trying to convince me to come join the sales team. And I had a stigma–I had a belief about what sales was–and just was like, “Eh, nah.” 

And what got into my hearing finally was when he said, “You know, Max, I've been doing this now for a little bit, and I haven't sold a thing. And I said, “You lie!” Because I've sat on the quarterlies, I've seen the numbers, I see how you're, you know, your team's killing it out there. They're doing really good for kids, and, you know, the proof is in the numbers. He said, "That's not what I mean. What I mean is, I have quality conversations about what folks’ goals are, what they're trying to do, and how they think they can get there. And then if we have solutions that can help them with that, I offer them. If we don't, we try to figure out how to get them to those right solutions, or even co-build.” And he said, “I've seen you have that conversation a thousand times over. You just haven't done it on the side where the quote-unquote ‘power’ lies.” 

And when I say power, I mean business power, right? Because at the end of the day, you can't get those resources in schools if somebody's not having that business transaction. And, you know, you have this new space of parents and decision-makers saying, "Hey, the pandemic gave us a whole different lens into what's happening in our schools and in the education of our kids, and we are demanding something different." So, I think for me, in the last decade, that has been the biggest shift, especially in the past five to six years. It's been going from, “Oh, I've heard of that,” or “That thing is cool,” or “I'm familiar with that,” to “Yeah, I've heard of that, but show me the proof on how that's actually going to make a difference, because I want to make sure that it matters.” I don't know the cost… The cost is definitely a factor, but I've seen people spend money when the quality is there. So, I don't think that has changed as much.

Rich Portelance

So, I hear you. Efficacy matters, assessment matters. So, those are key points. What are the district leaders actually evaluating today that they weren't then to get those outcomes? Is there something that people have to deliver, or what are you seeing?

Max Brooks

I'm actually going to give a whole different answer than what you might expect. In the conversations in the circles that I'm in, district leaders are evaluating their life and their safety. They're evaluating whether they're going to be a pariah in their community. They're evaluating every move, every single decision as to, “Is this going to get me in the news headlines?” And that is so unfortunate in my opinion, because that's not what they– that's not their expertise. They didn't go to school, they didn't do all the things and pursue the roles that they are now in to sit back and wonder if a procurement decision is going to mean the end of their career. And that's the reality. So, I don't know if that was what you were expecting, but that's what I'm hearing honestly. 

And before we even get to the rest of it, I think we– not in this podcast, but I think as a society, we need to figure out what that's about. Like, what is that really about? You know, I don't think people wake up trying to go and do harm to kids, right? Especially as career educators, and you've gotten to a level of making decisions on procurement. It's not– that's not what they're about. You know, not the folks that I've met and grown to know over these many, many years. So, that's a lot. I'll just let that kind of simmer for a second.

Rich Portelance

Yeah. No, I appreciate that perspective and I think that's something that companies should take into consideration, because it's really reinforcing your first point that efficacy matters, that, you know, empirical data–if you're going to deliver something to a district, then make sure it's well documented, make sure that there, you know, it's well-aligned, that everything's together and tight, and that it meets the requirements of the district, and it meets their strategic plan. If you do all that stuff and you come in with an empathetic point of view, then perhaps, you know, you're going to eliminate some of that stress that you just discussed.

Max Brooks

If you have not spent the time understanding the spaces where you want your products to be implemented, then in my opinion, you’ve got more work to do. Right? Before you even come soliciting our time and attention, you need to understand what we're giving up to give you that time and attention. If I'm going to hear your pitch, or if I'm going to even give an inkling of time to paying attention to this solution that you're saying can be revolutionary or change outcomes for kids, great. But you also have to recognize that the day is full, right? The schedules have been– the inertia is real. So, something has to come off the plate–something has to shift in order for that to come in. And every single shift has ripple effects. 

And so, when I, you know, consult and advise these organizations, I said to somebody, I said, “I get paid for my counsel, my creativity, and my connections. And I guard all of those very fiercely. But when I counsel folks, it's around: Do you understand your market? Do you understand intimately who it is you're trying to serve?” Everybody wants to scale. Everybody, right? We want to see growth, ideally because of impact, but sure, we also want to feed our families. And I don't begrudge anybody a chance to go make some coin, right? But if it's on the backs of children, or it's on– if we're doing that in a space where children are involved, I believe it is incumbent upon us to make sure that we have done our due diligence to understand those children, those parents, and that community.

Rich Portelance

Thank you. I like that answer very much, and I agree 100%, Max. One of the themes that is going to come forward in the executive forum in a couple of weeks is creating procurement confidence through scalable systems. I think you're touching on this, but from your perspective, what creates confidence during the sales process? What can you tell a prospective or edtech company that might be listening?

Max Brooks

What would make me confident in being able to adopt a resource or a service would be trust, of course, like that's number one. Can I trust the person that's across that their intentions are pure? Their motives are not… well… their motives are pure; I'll leave it at that. Because if I can trust you, then I can help my community trust you, right? And going back to the earlier point about even just personal safety, or even, you know, hoping that this decision won't have any negative effects, the more you can say, “Look, we don't have all the answers–” Anybody who's saying they have the answers right now is lying. They're lying! For me, it's about building trust by saying… I even have a keynote about this; it's called “Did You Know?” It's like, did you know some of these– We just start laying out some data and some facts, and seeing if people are even aware of that. When you know better, you what? Do better. So, for me, it's about awareness, education, understanding–even what we're doing here–thought leadership, putting data out there, putting phenomena now out there, and then having people react to that in a community, in a trusted space, with the right facilitators and guides and protocols. 

And I think this is where you start to say, "All right, if this edtech leader, if this company, or this consultant advisor, or whoever is bringing me this level of knowledge, and if they're educating me, then there's got to be something there in their product. There's got to be something there in their service that also is worthy.” And so, now I'm going to pay more attention, and bring you into that circle, and hopefully we can build something together that's going to make a difference. 

Rich Portelance

Okay. Thank you for the answer. And I think that– I think that's something that's well overlooked or often overlooked by companies–so, building the trust. Let's now assume that the trust has been established. Okay. Now, I have an opportunity to actually sell my product into this district who trusts me as, you know, a provider. What's the list? What are the things that that district is going to look for in order for this product to go through? Do you kind of have a sense of, you know, those things on the backend?

Max Brooks

Absolutely. When you think about the decisions that have to be made, people want to know, does it work? I was at the ISTE (International Society for Technology in Education) Conference, what was it, a month or two ago? And that's always overwhelming when you just see a whole expo hall full of, like, the bells, and the whistles, and the cool stuff. And what stood out to me actually was this one booth. There was a gentleman who had a table that was very kind of minimalist–not even a branded tablecloth. I think he had like, a little iPad set up there. But what drew me was he had, like, a physical game board and some things to touch that weren't on a digitized screen. And so, the company's called “Mi-box Live.” You can edit that out if you don't want to like, say a company's name. But it was across the pond over in the UK, and it was, you know, we had FIFA going on, I think, at the time, and so, I was like, “What's going on here?” So, he showed me how they had this awesome– what I thought was an awesome math game. It was like a board game, and it had player pieces, and there was an app that went with it. But he's like, you know, “I had to spend £20,000 to get this app developed, but it was a box I had to check to even be able to get heard in schools.” So, that's one of those things, like, some people are looking for, well, “Do you have XYZ?” You know, “Check the box before we can even pay attention to you.” 

But I said to him, I said, you know, “I love the fact that you're not leaning on the app as the ‘sell’,” right? I said, “There's a thousand apps out there. You're leading with like, ‘I'm coming because I want to come and play with whatever this is. I want to compete or be drawn in.” And I said, “There's a pendulum swing right now in the United States especially, where people are saying they're kind of anti-screen time. They're getting away from, you know, kids are always, you know, stuck in front of a device.” And I said, "So, amidst all the sea of technology, with robots running around doing karate kicks, drones flying, and everything, you're here with what I see as a way to connect humans in breathing the same air and touching the same, you know, pieces of a game board." And I said, "That is what we want for kids, right? We want to see kids engaging, learning, collaborating, all this creative– creativity, collaboration, communication, all that.” And I said, “This, to me, is that.” And I said, “So don't be discouraged.” I said, “Don't look around at everybody else and all their cool tech. Look at how you are building human connection.” And so, one of the other checkmarks is does a product or does this service bring people together? Or is it another thing that kind of separates and parses out, or puts us in these isolated rectangular boxes that flash, you know, images in front of us? I'm simplifying, right? I'm not– I don't want to make any edtech company feel like I'm diminishing their product. But if I'm a procurer, I'm going to be asking these folks, “Are you aligned to what we are trying to do in this district?” And most districts, as you can see, are saying, “We want human connection.” If you are not looking at the website, if you're not going and looking at, you know, past procurement patterns, if you're not, I mean, I don't want to give too much secret sauce away, but call me! Think · Do · Learn can help you! There's so much that these AEs, or these account executives, should be doing. If they're not, hey, talk to folks like us, and we can help bring you up to speed on what you should be doing to really build the type of… pitch, if you will, that is going to get you in the room, keep you in the room, and get you adopted. Personal stories matter. 

I know that– There's a client I just kind of brought on in the last couple of weeks, actually, who was speaking about their lack of understanding of the education space, because they're more into a whole different arena. But what they're doing creates opportunities for internships, and to me, like, any company, I don't care what you're doing, if you're a landscape design company, if you can bring young people into that space– I’m not saying to go cut grass. Sure, that's great if you could do that too, but as a company, you had to figure out how to get clients, you had to market your materials; you had to do so many things as a landscape company. If you can provide opportunities for young people to see every aspect of that business, to me, that's education, too. We were talking earlier before we pushed “record,” about CTE, certifications, and what is this all for? If we're not trying to help kids go out and make their way in the world, or at least be able to connect with other humans across lines of difference, then to me, that is the purpose of school. And if you're going to come and solicit the time, attention, and dollars of a school system, you should be aligned with those goals. 

Rich Portelance

Well, I think that's a great point, Max. And, you know, keeping in mind who you're serving. If that doesn't permeate through what you're offering, then, you know, perhaps you have to rethink that, because certainly the superintendents–and we hope that they have that in mind that, you know, ultimately we're trying to serve the students, we're trying to improve how teachers can teach the content so that they're not as overwhelmed as they often are, and we can get to a better outcome at the end of the day, right?

Max Brooks

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. 

Rich Portelance

So, when a superintendent is looking at a curriculum leader, or a curriculum leader is evaluating a solution, what do you think is going to tell them that with this company, we can trust them to deliver what they're saying? You know what are the signals that they're looking for?

Max Brooks

Evidence, for sure. I think I'm a pretty good “tell of character”, but if somebody's coming and promises you a bunch of stuff, or they're slapping AI labels on things, like, just kind of ask deeper questions. So, to me, one of the things that builds that trust is humility. Like, being willing to say what you don't know. Being– just giving an honest answer and saying, you know, “I don't know, but here's what we're going to try to do to get that answer.” If you are just out there only saying the positive, and only talking about the good, and not talking about the challenges and the struggles, trust and believe the truth is going to come out. And if you hadn't, at least on the front end, been transparent about some of those potential shortfalls, you're going to– even if you had built some trust, it evaporates immediately. So, I think humility, and being able to “Sam Jackson” the “known knowns and unknown knowns,” you know, that old Pulp Fiction line– There's a… Being just open and honest, and saying, “Here's what we do know, here's what we're capable of,” and if you get asked a tough question of, “Oh, can you do this or do that?” Just be honest. 

I had a conversation with a district leader in New York last year. When I was helping to launch a pilot, we were doing some 3D scanning with the middle school kids, and, you know, financial literacy and helping kids understand how to start a business with that, and so forth. And the district leader was wild and amazing; they were like, “This is awesome! Do you have something awesome for the elementary kids? We're focusing on third-grade math, and this, and the other.” And at the time, I did not have that level of support at that grade level. And so, I was honest about that. I said, "Look, I too share a desire to help, you know, those third graders." I was like, “But this particular offering is geared toward middle school.” I said, “But it's good that I know this, because knowing this, now I can help try to find a solution.” 

Rich Portelance

So, the next question I have is– I want to get into scalable systems, because we're talking about a lot of things that are a little bit harder to measure. But when we talk about scaling and procurement success, you know, multiple times over, when you think about organizations that consistently win business, what role do scalable systems play in their endeavors?

Max Brooks

Simple, clean processes. The more steps you have in internal processes, the more chances of something to break, right? So, when we think about scaling your systems, the more clean the process is, the fewer steps that you have, whether that's even in just how you identify your pipeline–I've seen companies that have 17 stages in the pipeline. It’s like, whoa, it's a lot of stages in your pipeline, right? Are we really going to be looking at something that's at a 5%, you know, chance to close? Or even a 20%– Is that– Do we need protocols at the 5%, the 15%, the 25%? Like, that's a lot. So I, you know, and other counsel folks say, like, clean that up. Maybe look at 50%, maybe 75%, 90%, and then onwards, because now you've condensed down to four stages, and the processes involved, and what you do in those processes, versus somebody else who's looking at the very “micro”, because if you're talking about scaling, it's not really effective to do that. That would be one of the biggest ones I see is just how people think about their pipeline stages, and then what are the indicators of that pipeline? 

Some folks are like, "Oh, I did my research. I looked at the top, you know, top 20 districts, and there are this many students in those districts, and if we were to, you know, get in front of that district leader decision-maker, maybe we could do a pitch and da da da da." And they start putting numbers behind potential revenue without ever having a conversation, or like, "Oh, I gotta– I saw that they opened the email. I'm gonna add that to the pipe." Like, what? What? That doesn't make sense! So, just helping people understand how to, again, build internal systems that are actually scalable, versus internal systems that are just, you're going to be spinning your wheels, you're going to be collecting a lot of data, you're going to be, like, forcing your people to do a lot of notes in Salesforce, or whatever other, you know, HubSpot, what have you. And that's going to waste time, resources, and it's going to lead to burnout, etc. So, if you want to scale, I'd say first start looking at your own internal processes and systems, and ask yourself, “Is this something we have to do, or is this just a ‘We're doing it because we've always done it’? Does this actually lead to, you know, us closing the deal and then implementing effectively?” If it doesn't, clear it out, clear it out.

Rich Portelance

I love that thought. I believe that it's– the timing is right to kind of talk about, you know, how do you cleanse your system and how do you make it as efficient as possible because there are so many priorities that are, you know, required today–some of which weren't really required like 10 years ago when we were in the world of Common Core. Everything was driven by the federal government; the states weren't doing too much. Now, you have legislative agendas for every single state, on top of the academic requirements. Some states have SEL (social-emotional learning), some states don't. You know, all these other, you know, nuances and minutiae. Having that process, looking at that process, and really refining it, I would think would make a lot of sense, right? 

Max Brooks

I think everybody's got to kind of make their own decisions, with guidance, of course, and Think · Do · Learn, that's one of the things that me and folks in my circle of trust, we think about deeply. You know, how do we help people win in a space where it's so fractured, you know, unfortunately? And I won't give guidance on that in this call, but it's a reality. It's a reality we have to really consider. 

Rich Portelance

Well, I think that's the point, right? It's, no matter how you feel about it, it's a reality that you have to check, and you have to look at, you know, does my product or service meet the requirements that are there? And if so, then how do I go forward in a process-driven way? And if not, then, you know, I can circumvent it, but if you don't check the box–if you don't look–you could be wasting a whole lot of time, you know, among other things, you know, disregarding the personal feelings about the political nature of those things, right?

Max Brooks

Yeah. 

Rich Portelance

Yeah. So, in terms of operational capability, separating the companies that are successful from those that struggle to win new business, are you seeing some things that, you know, that exist that you're saying, “That's a model that people should replicate”?

Max Brooks

I have two answers to this. One would be… We've seen some companies, even recently, close shop. And some of these companies, when I say they made it big, like, they– Especially in the pandemic, at the height of the pandemic, there were some companies that launched that were being, you know, adopted everywhere, and now they're, you know, they've had to close shop. I'm pretty sure that those businesses might have done well during that time; maybe they even, like, closed shop and sold off, whatever, but those communities are kind of left holding the bag. And so, I ask myself… Excuse me, you know, “What does it mean when an organization wins?” Does that make sense? Like, what does it mean to win? Is a win, “Oh, I started a business. It was great. I sold it, or I closed it, and I did very well for myself, or for my family, or for, you know, what have you.” That is the American Dream. That's what we– People want to do that, right? And we should. The question I have, though, is, are we teaching that? 

Even if you're, like, going back to landscaping, if you are coming in and offering a product or service, are you just exchanging a service for money, or are you doing more to say the people that I'm serving right now are the future me? Right? So, if you're bringing something into the space, are you also thinking about how you're helping to develop– or how are you going to pass the torch, if you will? Or are you only thinking about maybe a shorter-term business win? I personally like to work with companies that are thinking about the torch passing and not the business win. I don't begrudge the business win. I'm saying in this industry, in this space that I work in, what I'm about, and the companies that I want to support and do support are those who are thinking about more than winning from a business standpoint. I believe if you think about doing good work… Bill Goodwin used to say this–he was an executive at Discovery–”We do well by doing good.” If you think about doing good work first, the business will come. And I've seen that. I believe it because I've seen it–I've lived it. And that would be what I encourage other folks to think about. Are you leading with doing the good work first and thinking about the longevity of the folks you're serving? Like, am I helping set them up for their success in the future? Or am I only setting up myself and my business for the future and success? 

If you're going to scale and last in the industry, you have to be known as doing more than just providing a service. The best companies are the ones that are moved or even shape the culture. I say this all the time, like, technology is the vehicle, but culture is the driver. If you're not thinking about how your product or your resource impacts the culture–that local or even macro culture–then your ability to stay relevant in the game, going back to the Nike thing earlier, like it's going to– it's going to have a shorter tail. So, you have to be thinking about beyond this, this– even let's say a pilot. You get a pilot, you win that pilot, great. Have you already thought ahead to if we win this pilot, if we're successful in this, how might we celebrate and share the success? That's a question that should have been answered on the front end before any contracts were signed. You know, like, if it wasn't, then you get to that point of success, and it's like, “Yay! We were successful. What are we gonna do about that?” Well, ideally, you've already thought through that if we're successful here, these are the next three organizations that are going to know about it. Or these– Like, again, not giving too much secret sauce away, but you have to be more big-picture thinking. And so, going into a procurement conversation with the end in mind will impact your ability to scale long term.

Rich Portelance

And you kind of touched on my next question, which was, you know, what does successful adoption actually look like? And it's, you know, it's changing that zeitgeist or that culture, and, you know, you become really, truly adopted. It fits the need of the school, of the student, of the teacher, or whoever you're trying to help, right? It’s…

Max Brooks

This is the number one– To me, it's how many evangelists did you create at the end of the day? Like, how many– how many new followers did you– did you generate? And I don't mean social media followers; I mean people, acolytes, like people who are going to sing your praises when you're not even asking them to. Right? Who– who– when are the teachers going to get on their social feeds or get in their community conversation and start saying, "Yo, have you used… paint?" I'm just– I pulled up my son’s– whatever’s next to me. All of these things in this age and era, people will talk and positively endorse you. And I think if you're doing great work, that will be one of the best ways to know it is: “What are the streets saying?” As they say. What are the streets saying about you?

Rich Portelance

Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot. So, I'm curious from your perspective because, you know, you clearly are passionate about building great products and putting things into classrooms that make sense. Are you seeing an increase in the need for CTE-related (career and technical education) content and products at this point?

Max Brooks

I understand CTE very, very, very well, having grown up in a household where, you know, that was just what I knew. As I got into the education spaces and people started to try to like– not started to try– When I started to realize that there was, “Oh, ‘CTE’ or plumbing, like, all of those careers were for a different type of learner, and these are the things that other kids are worthy of.” That was a problem for me. A big-time problem for me, and it still is a big-time problem for me. I believe schools are places where we should learn all of that. I remember having home economics; I remember making a pillow; I remember learning how to– I mean, I knew how to cook, but I remember taking woodshop–I remember that circuit. And a lot of that is coming back into the fold, and it's hopefully not being looked at as a separate thing. 

I think there's a chance, to your point earlier for us to kind of redesign how we think about all those systems, and not necessarily parse it out to “Well, that's a career and technology education path, and this other–” Well, everything is! Everything is so intertwined; I don't care what you want to do. Even if you want to go into plumbing, even if you want to go into electric work, all of those careers are infused with modern technology–AI, drones, you know, you name it. So we're still going to have to… Like, we're still going to need plumbing, we're still going to need to figure out how we, you know, power our lives, we're going to figure out how to, you know, grow food and crops, raise livestock, etc., none of those things are going to change. The human condition is still the human condition.

Rich Portelance

What we're seeing in this changing landscape and world of eight billion people is the need to take those… that concept of CTE, because, you know, careers could go from AI to cybersecurity, to advanced manufacturing, to plumbing, like you mentioned, you know, whatever it is. But blending those with education standards, blending those with assessment to help to create the learners and thinkers of tomorrow in a world that we just can't even define today, because things are changing so rapidly. So, you know, like, how do we put these together into products so that, you know, that student becomes as well-rounded and as good of a creative thinker as possible? Which kind of goes back to our initial conversation before we turned on the camera about, you know, the importance of the arts. That creative thinking is so important in today's world so that, you know, these young people can make decisions better, they can think on their feet better, and adapt to changing landscapes, environments, etc. So I think that's where that CTE component comes in. Not as a hard and fast line to a specific career, but as a skill base towards whatever is out there, right?

Max Brooks

All of it. To me, all of it should be kind of looked at through that lens in my opinion. Again, that's just me, but… 

Rich Portelance

I want to talk a little bit about customer success, because, post, yes, we won, and you kind of touched on this earlier on like, okay, what's next? Customer success–how important is that? And how does that frame up, you know, future success in winning procurement bids? Do you have a perspective there?

Max Brooks

I absolutely have a perspective there. I finally– I'm smiling, because I think of– I'm gonna name-drop somebody: my good friend, Joe Diaz. He's out in California. But there was a time when he and I were– we affectionately called ourselves “the RAMs”, because we were the regional account managers. He kind of had the center of the country to the west, and I had the center of the country east for, like, the larger account in relations we had. And so, we were always like, in this– It's just good to work with people who are also kind of like kindred spirits to you. And so, we were always thinking about the toolkits we could design, how we could help make sure the resources took a hold, that they were, you know, able to be used even without human intervention, just thinking through all those different pieces to what makes a product kind of take hold and last. 

And that is so, so crucial. If you just sell something and walk away, you know, that's unfortunate. The best companies, in my opinion, are the ones that have been intentional around what does the experience look like after the sale is done. And as I mentioned, I got my first chops in the corporate space in that post-sales side. I didn't start off in sales; I started off in what they call, you know, implementation. And so, we were already trying to make sure people understood how to use these services. That's why we built such strong relationships. Teachers love the fact that when you go in and kind of can hold their hand, or give them the right guidance, just enough for the rigor to be successful or to see the success for their children, that's going to continue that renewal cycle. It's going to make sure people come back to the– to the– you know, to the provider, and say, “Thank you for helping us achieve the success, and thank you for even helping us think through what success looks like.” A lot of folks might not even know– Let's say I'm a first-year teacher, or second-year teacher, even a veteran teacher, like, trying to understand this new world of AI and technology. It's a lot, and teachers are already overstressed. So, the more clean and clear you can be with, you know, what it looks like to use a product or service, and make sure people feel comfortable and confident there, the better. 

If you're a provider, I would say bake as much of that into the product or service as possible. Make sure that folks know beforehand what success looks like so that as you're, you know, using the product or service, you can track towards that, you can kind of know if things are going off-kilter a little bit, and you can look at some data and adjust in real time. That is so key to ensuring that a product just doesn't get adopted, but stays and has lasting power.

Rich Portelance

So, thank you very much, Max, and, you know, this has been a great conversation. I have a couple more questions. I want to remind people to register for the upcoming webinar executive forum: “The K-12 Adoption Advantage: Creating Procurement Confidence Through Scalable Systems.” The link is below, it is on September 15th, and Max will be there along with some other guests. Max, if you were advising a CEO of an education– a growing education company today, where would you advise them to invest first? Would it be in people, technology, processes, customer success, partnerships? Where to put the early dollars?

Max Brooks

This is interesting, because I had a very extensive conversation last night with a client about that, because there are so many different ways they can go. And so, I kind of had to ask them–they're the founder–I said, "Look, you have to be clear on–yes, you want to do all these things, and all of them are possible, but you have to be clear on what's this first-stage win, the next stage win, and so forth and so on.” So, in this particular conversation, it was more about getting hyper-local and ensuring that what they were building was strong enough so that when they scaled outside of those geographic boundaries where they started, they wouldn't be dealing with unnecessary stressors of trying to balance the expansion and the sustainability of what was there. And so, getting concrete on asking can this run without you physically, geographically here? If not, you're only scaling problems–you're only scaling those challenges. 

And so, if I were to advise a leader, I would advise them to get very clear on is your mission and your vision that you've put on paper, that's on your website, that you probably memorized and put in your elevator pitch, is it something that can actually be actualized given what you have done so far and what you're what you're about to do? If what you're going to invest your money and time in is tracking towards that mission, create some sort of a rubric or scale to evaluate all those decisions. So, if you can go in six different directions, create some sort of– and I can help co-create with you–what are the ways that we're going to evaluate each of these? And at the end of the day, it should come back to mission, vision, and alignment. So, if it's people, if you're going to hire more people, great. Ask yourself, are more people going to be the solution to us achieving that mission and vision? Or do I need to maybe invest in, you know, partnering with, like, EdGate, for example, to help me think through, as a founder, what really are the long-term outcomes I'm trying to achieve? And maybe that advice and counsel might have you go in a whole different direction. So, investing in the time–that's, I think, what it is–it's the time that you need to invest, and who you spend that time with matters. If you're going to spend that time with an adviser or consultant… I mean, it's a shameless plug, but like, I think that's the best way to go is to not think that you have to do it alone. Talk to the industry experts, talk to folks who've been there and understand this. And then, looking at your unique circumstances, you'll best be able to know: is it a money decision? Is it a personnel decision? Is it a research decision? Is it a randomized controlled trial (RCT) decision? Like, all of that might be, you know, needed, but knowing what to do first is going to be based on your own unique circumstances. And, you know, if you can figure it out in-house, great, but don't reinvent the wheel. Maybe talk to some folks who can more deeply understand where you are, and then advise you on which way to go.

Rich Portelance

Excellent. I like the answer, and I think that makes a lot of sense to, you know, to really investigate and invest in the people. So, last question, Max. What do you think will most differentiate the education companies that will thrive over the next five years from those that will struggle?

Max Brooks

So, I was reading some of the U.S. Department of Education's guidance that just recently came out, and my takeaway, or what I, you know, this is how my brain works–I said… I literally– I might have said this to my wife as she was walking out because she had to go to a meeting–I was like, you know, “I think the companies are going to win in this new landscape, this kind of rocky, evershifting landscape.” It's going to be the people who co-build. It's going to be the organization– it's going to be, in my opinion, the organizations that get hyper-local with the community and says, “Look, we think we have some good solutions over here. We think we got some folks who've created something awesome, but let us get in the trenches with you, and co-build some things. Because if you co-build it or even co-own it, now the chances that it's going to get adopted and stay are much more likely. Much more likely. 

And it's easier said than done, and again, I’m happy to work with folks who want to figure out how to do that. But when you can come in with humility and with true care at the center, I promise that will– that will be much better in the long run, five years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now to say, “Look what we built together.” The more you can replicate that, I think the sky's the limit for how far you can go.

Closing Thoughts

Rich Portelance

Well, thank you today for today, Max Brooks. And you know, I think there's going to be a link below for your consultancy so people can reach out to you. I really appreciate your time and your thoughtful approach to this. This is the EdGate Powers podcast. We're happy to bring you this episode with Max Brooks, and Max, we'll catch you on the webinar in a couple of weeks, all right?

Max Brooks

Looking forward to it. Thanks, Rich. 

Rich Portelance

All right.